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Swopping round front and rear wheels / tyres ?

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Swopping round front and rear wheels / tyres ?

Postby AlexA » Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:41:32 UTC

Hi all..

My terrible local dealer (Cooper Sevenoaks) put the wrong tyres on the wrong wheels even though I said "put the ones with the most tread on the back" !! They instead put the ones with the least on the back and the most on the front ! Doh.... I was getting my winter tyres fitted as going skiing this weekend. They got used last year for 5000 miles or so. I wanted the most tread on the back naturally.

Now as they are 245/40/18 front and rear they said why dont we just swop the wheels and leave the tyres? To my knowledge that is not a good thing as they tyres may move on the rim and set the puncture jobbie off? They have only been on the car for 120 miles sicne the error.

Should they really fit them again and re-balance etc?

Cheers !

Alex
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Postby AlexA » Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:42:07 UTC

ps..its a 535d M Sport Touring
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Postby Peter » Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:01:06 UTC

Have you got a rim issue? Not staggered are you? If not, surely just putting wheels front to back will work.

Or am I mis-reading your problem? :oops:

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Postby phelix » Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:04:25 UTC

Not sure why they can't swap the wheels front to back. The E60 cars don't have a tyre pressure monitoring system as such; the system uses the rotational speeds as measured by the ABS/DSC sensors to decide if there's a puncture. You can reset this via the iDrive.
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Postby AlexA » Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:23:46 UTC

Peter wrote:Have you got a rim issue? Not staggered are you? If not, surely just putting wheels front to back will work.

Or am I mis-reading your problem? :oops:

Peter


Rims are fine. I just remember the last time I took them in the guy there was saying how its not good to swop them front to back etc...if its fine then that will save a lot of hassle. I think they said something about the big camber the e60 runs at the back and that the tyres will move. Sounds like rubbish to me ! After all I can just re-set the idrive surely. Even if it goes off once as a false alarm.

So the wheels are identical aren't they? No issues there...?

Just wish they had done it correctly to start with hey!
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Postby Olli » Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:36:41 UTC

Load of nonsense.
Don't see what the camber has to do with swapping the wheels.
No issue with pressure control, as explained by phelix.

Also shouldn't need re-balancing, as the wheel as such is balanced on it's own, doesn't matter where on the car it's put.
Unless they have been balanced on the car, which i more than doubt.
Just swap them round, I did it with the winter wheels on my 535d, too.

Not a problem at all.
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Postby AlexA » Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:50:46 UTC

olli wrote:Load of nonsense.
Don't see what the camber has to do with swapping the wheels.
No issue with pressure control, as explained by phelix.

Also shouldn't need re-balancing, as the wheel as such is balanced on it's own, doesn't matter where on the car it's put.
Unless they have been balanced on the car, which i more than doubt.
Just swap them round, I did it with the winter wheels on my 535d, too.

Not a problem at all.


OK great..cheers Olli. I just had in the back of my head one of their techies had said dont do it ! Much easier now. Now it's a few mins job instead. Just need some snow now which looks like I wont have on this trip after all !
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Postby BlackStuff » Tue, 22 Jan 2008 01:18:12 UTC

There is a school of thought which says that tyres should be allowed to bed in against the suspension setup of the wheel they are fitted to, and should not then be fitted to a different wheel as this will then result in uneven load / grip distribution. This would kind of tie in with the statement about camber - if the rear wheels are running a fair bit of negative camber and the fronts aren't then this would clearly result in different loadings and wear patterns.

What the outcome of ignoring this theory are supposed to be I don't really know. Presumably some reduction in grip and maybe some increase in risk of tyre failure?? I have to say I wouldn't have a problem with swapping tyres, though I'd tend to keep them on the same side of the car rather than changing the direction of rotation.
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Postby Peter » Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:55:09 UTC

BlackStuff wrote:There is a school of thought which says that tyres should be allowed to bed in against the suspension setup of the wheel they are fitted to, and should not then be fitted to a different wheel as this will then result in uneven load / grip distribution. This would kind of tie in with the statement about camber - if the rear wheels are running a fair bit of negative camber and the fronts aren't then this would clearly result in different loadings and wear patterns.

What the outcome of ignoring this theory are supposed to be I don't really know. Presumably some reduction in grip and maybe some increase in risk of tyre failure?? I have to say I wouldn't have a problem with swapping tyres, though I'd tend to keep them on the same side of the car rather than changing the direction of rotation.


I lean towards the 'leave in the same place' as well, best practice in ideal conditions. But not always practical. If replacing common sizes, in pairs, due to different wear rates the new should go on the rear. So means part worn tyres have to take a new stance on the road.

AlexA wrote:My terrible local dealer (Cooper Sevenoaks) put the wrong tyres on the wrong wheels even though I said "put the ones with the most tread on the back" !! They instead put the ones with the least on the back and the most on the front ! Doh....


Not the right thing to have done, hence just make a front to rear swap.

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Postby jon-willy » Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:43:29 UTC

The best two schools of thought are .....
Change diagonally front to back.
or.....
Leave in the same position and have the tyres turned on the rims.

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Postby Peter » Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:52:08 UTC

jon-willy wrote:The best two schools of thought are .....
Change diagonally front to back.
or.....
Leave in the same position and have the tyres turned on the rims.


BMW don't recommend any change, holding the safety and handling cards as the key reasons for leaving be. Even if for 'economical 'reasons a change is made, then only same side changes. Again stating braking characteristics and road grip.

If we do/can rotate/remount (directionals, asymmetric, staggered setups), should be done quite regularly, about every 3,000 miles.

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Postby Hearty » Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:58:10 UTC

My tyre dealer goes along with your $tealer - he advocates fitting the best treaded tyres on the wheels that take steering and braking - ie fronts, and leave the more worn ones to take car of accelerationa nd traction . . .

Sort of makes sense, 'specially in a rwd car, as you'll want to be able to steer and brake more than you'll want to be blasting away from the lights.

Personally, I'd always put the better treads on the back, :roll: Also I rotate mine (asymmetricals) front to back to maximise on the treadwear, as the fronts tend to lose their shoulders quite quickly. So a aquick change round means the fronts don't get below the limit at the edges . . .
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Postby Peter » Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:12:54 UTC

Hearty wrote:My tyre dealer goes along with your $tealer - he advocates fitting the best treaded tyres on the wheels that take steering and braking - ie fronts, and leave the more worn ones to take car of acceleration and traction . . .


Out of date thinking isn't it? Tests have shown that this is not the safest way of doing it. If a car is going to flip around, it will be the rear kicking out. So keep the car towards an understeer condition and it is safest for the average road driver. More so for RWD cars as they are more likely to put the rear in the hedge first, than FWD cars.

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Postby Hearty » Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:11:22 UTC

As I said in my post, "Personally, I'd always put the better treads on the back", but I'm just explaining why I think the $tealer is advocating his opposite option.

It's less likely these days that you'll break the back away with ASC/DSC, but I am with you in keeping control through the rear of the car . . .

So we aren't disagreeing here! 8-)
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Postby Peter » Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:52:51 UTC

Hearty wrote:As I said in my post, "Personally, I'd always put the better treads on the back", but I'm just explaining why I think the $tealer is advocating his opposite option.

It's less likely these days that you'll break the back away with ASC/DSC, but I am with you in keeping control through the rear of the car . . .

So we aren't disagreeing here! 8-)


I'd noted your own view... it is some of the tyre shops and garages that seem to be so out of date. Bit like doctors, IMO, don't normally have any idea of any advances since their time in training. :roll:

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