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5 series Diesel Auxiliary Heater

BMW forum 5 series car: E12, E28, E34, E39, E60, E61, F07, F10, F11

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Postby anthonybradley » Tue, 21 Nov 2006 00:35:15 UTC

more late night trawling of the WDS has unveiled the following snippet:

Additional heater
The functions telestart, preprogramming and operation via MID or on-board monitor are not available if the independent park heater/auxiliary heater is programmed to auxiliary heater.


Soooo, the way I read that is; there are two modes that the webasto heater can be set as by BMW. 1) Additional heater whereby it can be available via the MID / board computer, and also the telestart. OR 2) auxiliary heater, whereby it is only available as an extra to help warm the car / engine up whilst it is running when cold.

Of course my intyerpretation maybe wrong, but it would explain why we cant get the HVAC module to recognise it. Of course it maybe possible for BMW service to reprogam it to seen as the other type of heater, but I am not sure my friednly local BMW garage is going to do that when I explain that I have made my own telestart...

(As an aside, I was in there today at the parts desk when a mechanic came up to parts guy and asked him to get a replacement sensor for an alarm system, the parts guy bought it up on the WDS and said "is that what it looks like?" To which the 'mechanic' replied, "I dont know, what iot looks like, not seen it, its just come up as faulty so I need a new one to put in" ...... :shock: )

Looking more and more like we need to drive the blower under direct control of pin 4 of heater. I will get on it in the absense of any other info.

Anthony
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Postby richard_tricky » Tue, 21 Nov 2006 08:05:34 UTC

you could try emailing webasto again.. ive done this a few times...... but keep mentioning bmw and... get a standard response from webasto... now if we dident mention bmw maybe somebody would help....

also www.techwebasto.com used to have lots of info on it ???

and finally what about one of the (friendly dealers) on the webasto site.....??
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Postby anthonybradley » Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:57:30 UTC

Its not the webasto that I have any questions about, but the BMW. It is in the BMW modules that any such programming for either type of heater would exsist, the heater itself would stay the same but its how the car treats it that I believe differs, if my understanding of that statement is correct. The heater itself is actualy quite a simple affair, shame the same can not be said for teh HVAC module...

Anthony
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Postby kiforrest » Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:40:09 UTC

One of the reasons webasto back away when you mention BMW me thinks.

Damn shame as I would love to have this feature. Read a piece somehere about a chap who purchased a Euro IHKA - whatever that is - fitted it to his UK 530d - and the option to start the webasto heater (AUX HEATING) on the nav screen at 'settable' times appeared.

Someone will figure how to do this on the cheap - and can then sell on their solution - to rightly reclaim some money for all their research.
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Postby Gwaredd » Tue, 21 Nov 2006 12:10:04 UTC

Hi Anthony.

Where are you getting you 12V power supply from that goes into pin 1 of the heater?

The only reason I ask is because when fitting the telestart kit, it insists on using fuse No.8 in the fusebox, so perhaps this might trigger something else when it's powered up?

Also, when powering up pin 1 on the heater, you are plugging the 2 connecters back in?

Good luck, sorry I can't be more help (>99)
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Postby anthonybradley » Tue, 21 Nov 2006 12:15:16 UTC

Hi, I have used 12v from either the cigar lighet, or the jump start terminal on the engine block. I cant imagine it would natter where it came from, and I think fuse 8 is just a spare one, but I will check thanks.

Not sure what you mean by the two connecters. Althouigh I am not actually unplugging any connectors as I have spliced into the loom wire that goes to pin 1.

Anthony
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Postby Gwaredd » Tue, 21 Nov 2006 12:33:12 UTC

Hmm... There was no wire in pin 1 when I fitted mine, it was empty. I had to dismantle the connecter & fit the 'low voltage' wire from the supplied webasto loom into the empty pin 1 slot & reasemble.

What is the wire for that's already in pin one, & does is carry any voltage? Here may lie your problem...
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Postby anthonybradley » Tue, 21 Nov 2006 12:44:20 UTC

is your pre or post march 99?

I beleive that my wire to pin 1 is used by teh IKHA (climate module) to start the heater on cold morning etc to warm the car and engine up when first switched on.

If you have a post march 99 car, then I beleive the IKHA will instruct your aux heater to start via the K bus on pin 2 of the heater. If youy have a pre march 99 car then I am very confused....

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Postby Gwaredd » Tue, 21 Nov 2006 12:52:08 UTC

No, mine is a 2000 model car. That will explain why pin 1 is occupied then, although it might be worth taking the existing wire out for now & putting in your own 12V feed, just in case after 15 mins, or whenever yours cuts out, the 12V you've spliced in inteferes with another signal in the origional wire, hence shutting it down? Or perhaps, you only need an initial 12Volts to pin 1, as it only 'tells' it to start. Maybe you're leaving the 12V on for too long?

How annoying, I reckon if you had a K-bus'd car, youd've had it running by now :?
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Postby anthonybradley » Tue, 21 Nov 2006 12:58:53 UTC

I have tried it both spliced into pin 1, and as sole connecttion to pin 1, same resukt each time. The applied voltage needs to remain for the heater to carry on running, as soos as it is reomoved, the heater shuts down, this is the documented procedure for the heater.

Richard (whom I met up with at the weekend), has a post march 99 car, and we couldnt solve it on his either. If anything i think its actually harder as that uses a digital telegrams from the IKHA, so to get it to turn the fan on will require a telegram to the heater and to the IKHA I beleive. Pre march 99 works on analogue signals to integrate the heater into the IKHA which are easier to replicate (but nio easier to understand why it then doesnt work).

Anthony
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Postby richard_tricky » Tue, 21 Nov 2006 16:28:10 UTC

just been to rydales in Cardiff who were very helpfull.. but could not find much information on the retrofit kit for the telestart....

however i was on the phone to Anthony and we think we got a part number for the telestart.... unfortunately bmws intra net went down while i was there... i saw it happen (they weren't blagging).... so i did not manage to get the instructions and diagrams ... however anthony is on his way to his local to try and print them off!!!
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Postby anthonybradley » Tue, 21 Nov 2006 16:59:54 UTC

Ok, just been to a friendly dealer (they shall remain nameless incase they were not supposed to print this info for me). Certainly the part number I gave to Richard, and have just used is a good one (6450 0008 087), and seems to have lots of documents related to it.

I have a copy of most of a document that is labeled isbtallation instructions - independent heating and diagnostic guide.

It starts by talking about two types of heating, inline and bypass. Inline heats the engine aswell, which whislt good does mean that it will take 30-60 mins to heat the cabin. Bypass does not heat the engine and just heats the cabin with 30 mins max. It dies this via an electronic valve to isolate the heat exchanger and aux heater from the rest of the engine water circuit.

With regards to the inline system it states (abbreviated):
convential independent heater installed without specific BMW software. Since it is not in the cars bus system it cannot be controlled using the cars control system such as MID, OBM. Can only be controlled usinf webasto elements (multifunctional clock, Remopte control T60 /T70..., Thermocall)
Excepetion: In E38 and E39 diesel models the inline system config is converted by recoding teh factory fitted heater to heating / independent heating. In this case the ind heating is inc in the cars bus and can be comntrolled using the cars systems. In addition this ind heating can also be controlled using the webasto elements


With regards to the bypass system it states (abbreviated):
same heater installed with specific BMW software. The ind heating is not on the cars bus systemby means of encioding and can therefore be controlled using the cars control system such as MID, OBM. Depending on model, ind heating may also be controlled using webasto elements (telestart, multifunctional clock, t60/79/80/90/100), thermocall)


Interestingly they list telestart and the t60/70 range as two seperate things, I always though they were one and the same.

A table then lists various models, the E39 with M57 is listed as independent heater identical to series equipment. Uses Bypass system. Has bus integration. can be controlled by onboard (depedning on model), and requires coding.

The doc goes on with webasto specific fault finding and errors (I dont have those pages), but on the last page states:

Convential thermotop E + C ind heaters have an integral independent ventilation function. In this case a signal from a remote (t60, 70 etc) activates the ind vent function in the heater. the ind heater then only activates the cars blower to supply the interior with fresh air and reduce the heat in the interior.

That makes no sense to me, why wouldf a heater activate the blower to reduce the heat in the cabin? :roll:

Then there is a table in which E39 with M57 is lsisted as having 'factory fitted ind ventalition ' . Some other cars are listed instead as having 'ind heating with integrated ind vent function' and / or 'bedienbar mit funkfernbedienung T70 / 80 /90 etc handsender telestart thermocall' which translated by babelfish is: operated with radio remote maintenance T70/80 /90 etc. hand transmitter telestart thermal call.

So I am not to sure that all that means yet. It didnt have any more wiring diagrams in it. Richard / someone else, mayeb some of the otehr docs associates with that part number have other info in, such as wiring diagrams.

I am a little confused in that when I forst read it I presumed I had the inline system as the pipes to the main radiatir get hot with just the heater on, but the table suggests that I have the bypass system. Of course it could just be that the bypass valve wasnt closed when I ran the heater so it still heats the whole engine.

I still have a theory that from those and other notes I have previously, the car can be coded / programmed to work better with the aux heater, such as to register the pin 4 going high and to switch on fans when it does etc.

Not sure we are any further ahead or not.... :(

Anthony
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Postby v10tdiguy » Tue, 21 Nov 2006 20:30:12 UTC

Hello, This is my first post to this forum.

I have just come across this thread and find that I may have some useful information.
I own a V10TDI Touareg in the US that is equipped with a Webasto unit for supplemental heating. I too have been trying to figure out how to operate the heater without the engine running. I have had numerous communications with Webasto and become aware that there are different types of controller boards that can be used in the heater. The board that is not vehicle specific is manufactured by Hella. I will provide the pinout for that board below. The boards that are vehicle specific Webasto would not comment on. In my case the controller board is connected to one of several CAN BUS systems in my vehicle and the board pinout is different. I provide the info below since what I have read in your thread indicated that some of you at least seem to have the standard board.

Also to operate the heater independently via pin 1 with the standard board a circulation pump has to be connected directly to and operated by the heater. If no circ pump is present then only pin 3 operation of the heater will be available. Pin 3 operation should only be done while the engine is running or that heater will overheat.

Pin out for the 6 pin connector on the Aux. heater.
1. Park Heat (If 12V is sent to this pin the heater run and the circulating pump will turn on) If pin 4 is wired correctly the interior fan will also run assuming correct coding. (if circ pump is not present the heater will shut off)
2. Diagnostics
3. Supplemental heat (if 12V is sent to this pin it turns the unit on and cycles at a lower temp and will not engage the interior fan or the circulation pump.)
4. Fan Blower (this pin sends a signal to operate the interior fan)
5. Summer Mode (if 12V is sent to this pin and pin 1 at the same time the interior fan will come on without the heater.
6. Fuel pump (this pump is for the aux heater itself)

The circ pump is wired to one of the 2 pin connectors on the top of the heater underneath a plastic cover.

I hope this info helps in some way.
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Postby richard_tricky » Wed, 22 Nov 2006 09:51:43 UTC

that helps a lot ! thanks.... im still trying to get outside to have a look at my heater, but it just wont stop raining here (Wales!)

so anthony .. let me assume this

On YOUR car pin 1 operates the heater by 12v (ish) and pin 4 is meant to operate the fans also by 12 volt??

on MY car pin 1 is operated by 12v BUT pin 4 is operated by sending a kbus signal from it to the ihka??
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Postby richard_tricky » Wed, 22 Nov 2006 09:52:57 UTC

also v10tdi guy, i have seen telestart kits on ebay germany specifically for your car.. the t80/90 i think its badged with audi logos allover it.....on the key and the telestart box!!
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Postby Gwaredd » Wed, 22 Nov 2006 11:06:14 UTC

Hi Guys. It sounds like your cicuit board isn't configured to turn the internal water pump on, so your heater unit is overheating as the coolant has nowhere to go, but I guess you've already worked that out ;)

If that's the case, then I'm pretty sure it's not sending a 12V supply from pin 4 to turn the blowers on.

The only thing I can think of, is that maybe the T70 receiver sends a coded or pulsed signal to pin 1 that allows these functions to be used?
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Postby richard_tricky » Wed, 22 Nov 2006 11:56:03 UTC

Hi Gwaredd... you fitted one to your car didn't you ? was literally a connection to pin 1 and the to the fuse box and then neutral... and do you have a part number for the retro fit kit... what year is your car??
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Postby Gwaredd » Wed, 22 Nov 2006 12:31:35 UTC

Yes, I fitted mine about a year ago. Mine's a 2000 model (post Sept. '99) Sadly, no part No. except the one on the instructions, 41V0031 (tho I think that's just the instruction manual part No.) I could post them to you, but they really hold no clues. It just shows what trim panels to remove etc.

Image

From this image, you can see 6 wires from the T70 receiver unit going into a multiplug that contains only 3 wires. Red, to No. 8 fuse (+) Brown to earth & the black LV wire to pin 1 of the heater.

Question is, what & where do the other 3 wires do/go? Hence me thinking that maybe some kind of pulsed signal is pumped along the black wire that switches on the functions in the heater unit itself (water pump & cabin fan) that are otherwise locked out.
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Postby Gwaredd » Wed, 22 Nov 2006 12:33:03 UTC

Ok, so that pic didn't work, but C&P the link into your browser.
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Postby Gwaredd » Wed, 22 Nov 2006 12:34:24 UTC

Ok, here we go :oops:

[web]http://www.whitewd.co.uk/images/thermo3.jpg[/web]
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