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E60 530d poor mpg - thermostat?

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Re: E60 530d poor mpg - thermostat?

Postby bmwe60 » Fri, 20 Jan 2012 19:17:39 UTC

thanks for your help
seems to me like the head gasket too, the water comes from the engine and goes to the radiator. The pipe is solid. I have switched my engine off and thats when the water starts coming out from the tap on the expansion tank. The water doesnt just drip out it comes out at quite a hight pressure when i undo the tap slightly. White smoke comes from the exhaust and it smells a bit.
its couldnt be anything else could it?
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Re: E60 530d poor mpg - thermostat?

Postby Heardy » Sun, 29 Jan 2012 09:42:54 UTC

After replacing both main and Egr stats, on the same run as before, temp now sits at 93-95 oC at around 70mph
No improvement as yet with mpg but at least everything is as it should be now.
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Re: E60 530d poor mpg - thermostat?

Postby bwmzoom » Sun, 29 Jan 2012 10:05:37 UTC

You should see an increase over a tankful of around 3-4 mpg depending on what your original running temp was if it was around 75 you may not see any increase BUT you will be at the correct temp for the dpf regen which is more important in the long run :)
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Re: E60 530d poor mpg - thermostat?

Postby Busamad » Sun, 29 Jan 2012 18:27:35 UTC

Did both my stats today.

I Read up on the information here about 'how to' & cracked on. Took about 4 hours, with tea & fags, but it was all pretty straight forward. The one tip I'd advance is there's not need to fully remove the EGR from the exhaust manifold. I removed the top bolt but not the lower on, I unscrewed the lower one then placed a few turns back in on it, I found that I was able to work round the EGR with ease so I would not remove the lower bolt when I do this again. All BMW parts from BMWmini parts, very good guys.

Took the car for 30 miles & after 7 mile - 2.5deg outside - the car was running in the 90s. Did a motorway route, the car settled at between 90-95 at a steady 80-90 mph.....on the final stretch I rocked it up to 130ish & held it there, the temp fell back to 75 & stayed there of the rest of the run, only a few miles at that point.

Before I changed the stats in similer weather conditions I was getting 60deg on the motorway so I've seen a massive improvement. MPG is back to mid 30s even with a high speed run.

Any thoughts on how long these items last? Mines got 90k on it & I only became aware of this as I did notice my temp indicator was not at the usual 4 lines leading me to look into it however i don't know how long it has really been going on for?

p.s BMW Leicester want £510 to change these items, I did it for £95 all in so read up & tool up........ imho
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Re: E60 530d poor mpg - thermostat?

Postby Peter » Sun, 29 Jan 2012 18:38:03 UTC

Busamad wrote:Did both my stats today.

.....Took the car for 30 miles & after 7 mile - 2.5deg outside - the car was running in the 90s. Did a motorway route, the car settled at between 90-95 at a steady 80-90 mph.....on the final stretch I rocked it up to 130ish & held it there, the temp fell back to 75 & stayed there of the rest of the run, only a few miles at that point.

Any thoughts on how long these items last? Mines got 90k on it & I only became aware of this as I did notice my temp indicator was not at the usual 4 lines leading me to look into it however i don't know how long it has really been going on for?


So what is that 75C all about? At the high speed, or while running afterwards?

As to how long they last, it is really "how long is a piece of string?" Seems the EGR 'stat can fail to the point of not closing the first stage completely, so is open from low ambient temperatures, but not heard of a main 'stat being open on removal. They both typically start tailing off of optimum temperature, at quite an early age/mileage, from the way reports are coming in.

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Re: E60 530d poor mpg - thermostat?

Postby Busamad » Sun, 29 Jan 2012 18:41:11 UTC

I'd also add that when bleeding the coolant turn you fan on, set temp to hot - as said here - open the plastic cap on the EGR, which has a slot cut in it, face this slot forward of the car & apply some pressure to the header tank until a jet of water comes out of the plastic EGR screw.
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Re: E60 530d poor mpg - thermostat?

Postby Busamad » Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:02:56 UTC

Peter wrote:So what is that 75C all about? At the high speed, or while running afterwards?


Temp dropped to 75C while running at that speed, it did pick up slightly when I slowed up, a touch more when off the M-way which was the end of the run. I presume that - as the car had reached temp the stat should have been open - by me raising it to a high speed quickly that the stat didn't respond to the extra air flow & cooling effect therefore cooling the motor quite quickly, as said the outside temp was about 2deg so pretty chilly!

My main stat didn't look any different to the new one but I could blow through the EGR. Now I know about this I'm going to keep an eye on it. I won't look at it until summer, or until I notice the temp indicator stops reaching the 4 lines that it does when at temp.

Note: The temp indicator showed 4 lines at 75C & 95C so it's heavily buffered....as is my 328 I believe.
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Re: E60 530d poor mpg - thermostat?

Postby bwmzoom » Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:19:46 UTC

Busamad wrote:
Note: The temp indicator showed 4 lines at 75C & 95C so it's heavily buffered....as is my 328 I believe.


It's not a temp gauge but an indication as to when you can high rev the engine i.e don't rev into the dashes if you notice the position of them restricts your visual rev range :)
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Re: E60 530d poor mpg - thermostat?

Postby Busamad » Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:39:40 UTC

Yep, understand that.

I gather that we’re looking to have the temp closer to 90C rather than 75C. I doubt that any engine will run at an optimum unless it’s subjected to a constant environment i.e a race car being used consistently at race pace or our cars sat on a motorway at a constant speed. I know my 328 - which is very temp sensitive, let it over heat & that’s the engine gone – has a heavily buffered temp gauge, I’m not sure I like having a big swing on it. My next job is to install a proper temp gauge, as I only use it on track temp management becomes very important. You’re either gunning it or parked so knowing precisely when the car’s is reaching a high temp will be useful.
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Re: E60 530d poor mpg - thermostat?

Postby Peter » Sun, 29 Jan 2012 20:33:01 UTC

Busamad wrote: Temp dropped to 75C while running at that speed, it did pick up slightly when I slowed up, a touch more when off the M-way which was the end of the run. I presume that - as the car had reached temp the stat should have been open - by me raising it to a high speed quickly that the stat didn't respond to the extra air flow & cooling effect therefore cooling the motor quite quickly, as said the outside temp was about 2deg so pretty chilly!

My main stat didn't look any different to the new one but I could blow through the EGR. Now I know about this I'm going to keep an eye on it. I won't look at it until summer, or until I notice the temp indicator stops reaching the 4 lines that it does when at temp.


I'm with you, I've noted mine will plunge if running a steady coolant temperature (at low ambient temperatures) and you give it some hard acceleration, drops immediately by several degrees.

There is so much cooling capacity at low temperatures, and vital heat wasted around the engine, something we really could do without, at near freezing temperatures.

I was out and about yesterday in the 0 - 2C ambient range, and only running between 83 - 85C after 13 miles, until I climbed a steep hill and that got me to 89C in half a mile. Came back down five minutes later and it dropped to 79C (no throttle, so no fuelling), and it took 6 miles to get back to 86C, running in 30 and 40mph zones, at a temperature of 1C maximum. An hour later it was 66C when I came home, took almost 6 miles to get to 89C where it stayed through the glen at 60mph, at 0.5C ambient.

As I posted in another thread, the family VW Caravelle bi-turbo TDI virtually mirrors my 330d, for how the temperature fluctates at low ambient temperatures, over the same trips.

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Re: E60 530d poor mpg - thermostat?

Postby BlackStuff » Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:32:14 UTC

bwmzoom wrote:
Busamad wrote:
Note: The temp indicator showed 4 lines at 75C & 95C so it's heavily buffered....as is my 328 I believe.


It's not a temp gauge but an indication as to when you can high rev the engine i.e don't rev into the dashes if you notice the position of them restricts your visual rev range :)

Having compared the OBC "secret" temperature readout with the "white lines" on the rev counter I've seen very little correlation between the two. I'm even wondering whether the white lines are actually based on engine oil temperature, not water???

As to the 75C at high speed thing, I tend to agree with Peter. There is so much plumbing running around these engines that it's almost like having a radiator even when the stats are shut! At very high speed even though the engine is working fairly hard the amount of cooling airflow around the engine and associated pipework will be very significant, especially in low ambient air temperature.
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Re: E60 530d poor mpg - thermostat?

Postby Busamad » Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:34:23 UTC

Given how important engine temp is to a D engine there seem to be an excess of cooling ability built in to them (I know it's been a cold day!) In countries that have very low temps there are engine jackets available. Might seem like over kill over here but if the cooling system can manage to cool the engine very quickly I presume that it would be able to manage the temp when the engine is well insulated? would be good on short trips.

I know BMW experimented with enclosed engines to ensure optimum temps were achieved & maintained. Stability is the key & watching mine drop 15C after a bit of high speed running was quite a surprise. Interesting stuff though.
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Re: E60 530d poor mpg - thermostat?

Postby Busamad » Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:53:46 UTC

BlackStuff wrote:I'm even wondering whether the white lines are actually based on engine oil temperature, not water???


Would make sense, having the oil up working at its optimum is the best opinion for the engine, certainly good for the turbo's!!. Engine temp is more about MPG & emissions, a clean D engine - & having looked into mine a bit it is a filthy thing - or a clean induction system at least is the goal around engine temps.

Good call on the oil, I'd be really interested to know if this is the case.
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Re: E60 530d poor mpg - thermostat?

Postby Peter » Sun, 29 Jan 2012 22:05:59 UTC

Busamad wrote:..Good call on the oil, I'd be really interested to know if this is the case.


It would make more sense being oil temperature related, for working an engine harder with more revs. But I'd imagine it is still quite a low temperature (unless you guys know different), as oil is a very slow warm up, particularly at low ambient temperatures. I've seen at least 16 miles to get to oil temperature on the Caravelles, and that isn't the coolest days either.

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Re: E60 530d poor mpg - thermostat?

Postby stublue » Sun, 29 Jan 2012 23:30:12 UTC

Ok ...how do you read the secret temp gauge in a e60 .....I have the same low mpg in my 535d ...thanks
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Re: E60 530d poor mpg - thermostat?

Postby bwmzoom » Mon, 30 Jan 2012 09:20:41 UTC

Here you go:

This is pretty much all the information you need...

http://www.scoopz.com/m5board/E60_Hidde ... ctions.pdf

To be clear, it's the last five digits of your VIN that make up the code required to unlock all the menu options.
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Re: E60 530d poor mpg - thermostat?

Postby bwmzoom » Mon, 30 Jan 2012 09:23:05 UTC

"If everything is under control you're obviously not going fast enough!"
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Re: E60 530d poor mpg - thermostat?

Postby Busamad » Mon, 30 Jan 2012 11:06:26 UTC

Peter wrote:
Busamad wrote:..Good call on the oil, I'd be really interested to know if this is the case.


It would make more sense being oil temperature related, for working an engine harder with more revs. But I'd imagine it is still quite a low temperature (unless you guys know different), as oil is a very slow warm up, particularly at low ambient temperatures. I've seen at least 16 miles to get to oil temperature on the Caravelles, and that isn't the coolest days either.

Peter


Had a quick surf around to see if there's any info on oil temps & the indicator but no joy - can't be bothered giving it more than half an hour right now though!.

I'm now thinking that the dash indicator is an 'overall' gauge including water & oil temps ??? It would make sense that both information streams could come together into the single indicator, this would be consistent with the 'minimalist' approach BMW took with E60 dash. I did manage to find out that all temp gauges were heavily buffered after customers complained of 'wild' temp fluctuation displayed on un-buffered gauges - the E36/46 gauges settle in the middle of the gauge when temps run between 75C & 110C, quite a swing.

Watching my coolant temp, & reading here, there obviously big temp swings in the cooling system, I would have thought that the oil would be much more stable, it gets there & stays there.

My indicator ran at 4 bars when the coolant was at 90-95C, external 2C. It'll be interesting to do the same run in the summer & note the bars in the indicator, if less bars show I would infer that it does respond to the oil & coolant. My 525d settled at 2 bars & I'm sure I've seen the same on the 535d but not really paid attention, I will be now
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Re: E60 530d poor mpg - thermostat?

Postby dandle » Mon, 30 Jan 2012 11:49:47 UTC

Mine doesn't have massive coolant swings. It reaches 88 within 6 miles and will settle at about 92 on the motorway. Occasionally it will drop down to 88 if coming off the motorway into town for example and sometimes can go up to 94.
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Re: E60 530d poor mpg - thermostat?

Postby Busamad » Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:17:10 UTC

As above. Mine swung on a high speed part of the run only, normal driving it was pretty consistant, it is very cold out though.
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